General Thoor

[Scout07]

Alright, so I know we have a thread in the open discussion forum about this guy, but since some of what I'm saying directly comes from Hero, I didn't want to post it in the open.

After reading Hero, has anyone, just maybe, started to revise their opinion of the guy, just a little? I think I am starting to.

The thing that really set it off was Archer. It's pretty clear that he's not really a good guy. He has his own private agenda here, and it may or may not be with the good of the world in mind. Even if he thinks he has the welfare of the world at heart, we all know what they say about roads paved with good intentions.

So his comment was, if I remember correctly, that Thoor was dangerous because people like him breed resistance, or somehting to that effect. And Archer was quick to side with the people that wanted to take military action against Novosibirsk. So that got me thinking, maybe Thoor isn't really the bad guy here.

We can all agree that he is brutal. He shows that in every book so far. And he does some pretty bad things to get the results he wants (having Nicole murdered comes to mind). But the theory always has been, to fight a monster, you have to become a monster. My opinion is that Thoor really is a good guy, just very, very brutal, and he is willing to use whatever methods he thinks are necessary to accomplish the mission. A sort of "ends justifies the means" kinda guy.

So, what do you all think?

[Logan]

I don't think Thoor is a good guy.

I DO think he is a complicated individual with a grand scheme.

I DO NOT think that he is interested in enslaving mankind or dabbling in mad science.

Basically, it seems to me that he's very much like you said: a man who will do whatever it takes to accomplish his goal. Obviously his goal conflicts with Archer's, but that does not mean that either is on the positive side. My guess is that Archer views him as a threat to his power (through whatever means). Any threat is unacceptable to Archer.

I don't think Thoor would order Nightment to murder innocent civilians. I do think that Thoor would raze a village to kill a necrilid. Basically, I think he's interested in preserving mankind as a whole, not necessarily preserving every human life.

[spolice88]

i dont think we can honestly classify thoor as a good or bad guy. he kind of falls in that grey area in between. lee has said that thoor is sort of like a "the ends justify the means" kind of guy. however i suspect that both him and archer are bad for this war and the planet. thoor wants a world of only nightmen and archer wants....well, thats the question isnt it?

[Scout07]

i dont think we can honestly classify thoor as a good or bad guy. he kind of falls in that grey area in between. lee has said that thoor is sort of like a "the ends justify the means" kind of guy. however i suspect that both him and archer are bad for this war and the planet. thoor wants a world of only nightmen and archer wants....well, thats the question isnt it?

Without knowing Archer's true intentions, it's really hard to say about him, but i don't think Thoor is necessarily bad for the war. He is willing to do whatever he thinks it will take to get the job done, even if it means sacrificing whole squadrons to do it.

Now, that is a pretty cold way to go about things, but he gets results. I don't think Thoor wants the world to be controlled by the Nightmen, I think he just wants to be left alone. I think he wants his own little kingdon, for lack of a better word, and for everyone else to just leave him be.


Now, consider his reaction to Scott's decision to go assist the 51st and 42nd. He actually laughed. With anyone else, he would have been furious, and probably ordered a handful of executions, but he lets Scott have free reign to do what he wants. He even said, he didn't want a pet, he wanted a predator.

I think that Thoor saw the raw potential in Scott, and by having Nicole die, he thought he could unlock that. Sure, part of it was because he wanted to see if he could make the Golden Lion fall, but that was only part of it. He wanted to turn Scott into a brutally effecient commander, and by the end of Hero, that's what he is.


Sorry for the long read, but I think Thoor is a much more interesting character now than I ever thought he would be. I don't think you can clearly define his objectives and methods as "evil". He's cold, ruthless, and ultimately uncaring, but he gets the desired results from his people. I think he's exactly the kind of general the war needs. And I find it intersting that Archer is pushing really hard to get him out of the way.

[Scout07]

By the way, in Hero, Thoor winds up with both a Bakma Noboat and, potentially, a nest of necrilids (assuming there was more than the one nest Scott and the Nightmen destroyed in the facility). Anyone have any ideas what he is planning to do with those?

[spolice88]

i think that in thoors own little way he has taken a shin eto scott. he finds him fascinating in that he can neither control nor predict what scott is going to do or what goes on inside scotts head. scott is like thoors rubics cube. just when he think he has him figured out, scott throws a new twist into things and its what keeps thoor interested.

the fact that thoor now has a noaboat and a necrilid nest frightens me more than anything. i am still dead certain that he has his own perrogative about this war and he will be using it to his advantage. i agree that he wants to be left alone, but not entirely. he wants to be left alone when it comes to how he handles things but if he is left alone completely he wont have anyone to "play" with. with him having all those eden soldiers beneath him he is essentially playing "mission assault barbies" and moving the soldeirs around. it is clear what thoor wants: thoor wants power and he will take it any way he can get it.

[Scout07]

i think that in thoors own little way he has taken a shin eto scott. he finds him fascinating in that he can neither control nor predict what scott is going to do or what goes on inside scotts head. scott is like thoors rubics cube. just when he think he has him figured out, scott throws a new twist into things and its what keeps thoor interested.

the fact that thoor now has a noaboat and a necrilid nest frightens me more than anything. i am still dead certain that he has his own perrogative about this war and he will be using it to his advantage. i agree that he wants to be left alone, but not entirely. he wants to be left alone when it comes to how he handles things but if he is left alone completely he wont have anyone to "play" with. with him having all those eden soldiers beneath him he is essentially playing "mission assault barbies" and moving the soldeirs around. it is clear what thoor wants: thoor wants power and he will take it any way he can get it.

I don't know as though Thoor wants more power than he already has. I mean, he is a general in the military, he has his own force of Nightmen that he can use as he sees fit, and no one from Eden really wants to stand against him right now. I also don't think he is interested in starting a war with Eden or anyone else for that matter.

Remember when Scott, Becan, David, and Jayden first got to Novosibirsk, and Thoor met them on the runway? He told them "Out job is not to preserve humanity, it is to destroy all who oppose it." He doesn't want to start a fight with anyone else, he just wants to crush the invaders.

I think Thoor knows that something is "off" in the High Command. He executed the Eden spies in front of the two judges to make a point. Basically "I know everythign that you are doing, in these walls and outside of them. Don't provoke me."

I just think that, at least for the time being, Thoor really is one of the good guys. The good guys just don't want to admit it, because they don't like his methods, and they don't like that he doesn't fall into line like the rest.

And Archer doesn't like him because Archer is a back-stabbing traitor who is only out to save his own skin, and Thoor will stand in opposition to him.

At least, that is my opinion. :D

(If you can't tell already, I'm really starting to like the Thoor character.)

[Logan]

I still think Thoor is evil, but only according my my personal definition of evil. He's an innately evil person whose goals simply coincide with the survival of mankind as a whole. I don't believe Thoor wants to dominate humanity. I don't even think he wants to control humanity. I genuinely believe he wants to save humanity, but only because it's in his interest to do so.

I also think that the characters view Thoor as evil because they can't see the big picture like him. If they could, they might change their view of him from downright diabolical to calculating and efficient. For now though, they can only see him in the limited capacity available.

As an aside on our glorious dictator, what do you think his goals in life would be if there were no aliens invading? It's obvious what his role is right now: save the world by any means necessary. But what kind of a person would he be without the aliens? The book mentions briefly his history of Nightment before EDEN, but would he be just another military commander or mercenary unit? What do you think his goals would have been?

Just a thought.

[Scout07]

As an aside on our glorious dictator, what do you think his goals in life would be if there were no aliens invading? It's obvious what his role is right now: save the world by any means necessary. But what kind of a person would he be without the aliens? The book mentions briefly his history of Nightment before EDEN, but would he be just another military commander or mercenary unit? What do you think his goals would have been?

Just a thought.

It should be pretty obvious. As "evil" as he is, it only makes since that he would run the the "evil empire".......in other words, Walmart.

Seriously though, I think without knowing the details of his past, it would be hard to say. I really think though that he was made to be a general. Just his persona, the way he carries himself, the way he commands respect and fear at the same time. I don't know what other job those talents could be applied to (other than Walmart of course)

[spolice88]

i think that logan may be onto something with the alien war. without the alien war where would thoor really be? in this situation he may be the "undercover" good guy that is doing things the bass-ackwards way, but whathappens when the war is over? sure, thoor may be a neccessary evil but as soon as there's nothing left to oppose humanity what does he do? where do his nightmen go? what does the machine become?

[Furrier678]

So I'm thinking that Thoor is a lot like Hitler. Maybe it's the firing squad that gunned down the Eden spies who were blind-folded and naked, or maybe it's just because I happened to watch Valkyrie today. But I'm not feeling the "good guy" vibe from Thoor at all!

[Scout07]

I guess I may not be making ymself clear enough.

I don't think Thoor is a "good guy" in the typical sense of the word. I view Thoor as a character that, in any other situation (for instance, if the war was not happening), would be a decidedly BAD guy. but in this instance, with the war happening, he just happens to find himself in a position that makes him one of the good guys out of necessity.

Yes, he does bad, some would say 'evil', things. Yes, his methods are cold, brutal, and sometimes uncivilized. Yes, he intentionally had Nicole murdered to get to Scott, and he killed Sveta's boyfriend off for no reason. He is not your typical "good guy".

But in this war, he has proven to be very effective at fighting the alien invaders. And if Archer views Thoor as a threat, then maybe it is a good thing that Thoor is fighting the way he does, at least for the time being.

[spolice88]

unquestionably i would choose thoor over archer if i had to choose sides. while thoor doesnt exactly top the good samaritan list he isnt about to do something that threatens the human race. i just want something or someone to knock him down a peg or two.


or six.

[Polyester-DK]

Thoor is certainly a bad guy, made most obvious by the execution of the Eden spies in cold blood. But I think Eden command is dealing with him in the wrong way.

Thoor is obviously the greatest general in the world. Although his methods are no doubt questionable, he sends out his troops every time Eden calls and fights with them, not against them. I don't know why they are spending as much time and ressources as they are on trying to take him down. They risk being in the middle of another great war, besides the one they are in with the aliens, and losing all control of a huge region of the world. On the contrary I think Eden could learn a thing or two from the Nightmen. It's almost scary how much better they are in battle than the Eden soldiers. Everything from their armor to their combat skills and battle tactics seem far superrior to that of Eden. That can't just be because they only recruit the best soldiers. It is their training that is far better. I don't think we'll ever see the day where nightmen are teaching at Philadelphia, but honestly, it might not be such a bad idea.

The fact that they have to kill someone to even become a nightman casts a very dark shadow over their entire group. But we have seen nightmen fight heroicly along with Eden soldiers in several battles. There have even been signs that Scott is far from the only one who has really struggled with the emotional effects of what he had to do to wear the black armor.

Whenever the Alien was i over, I'm affraid Thoor could become very dangerous. But untill then I would rather see Eden work with him than against him. And my perception of the individual nightmen has changed a lot after reading Hero. Some seem to be pure evil but others, maybe even the majority, have a much more human side than we were led to believe at first.

[spolice88]

well said polyester.

eden really is making a HUGE mistake with the way they are handling thoor. thoor is, while a huge pain in their side undoubtedly, is a varitable asset that they simply Cannot afford to be rid of. what other base could take on a bakma invasion/attack like the one novosibirsk undertook and come out nearly unscathed? (by that i mean it still stand strong and accomplishes near impossible feats) eden needs to entertain the thought of learning a thing or two from the nightmen and then maybe earth could stand more than just a fighting chance against the aliens.